Curse

Asara · Nov 17, 2009, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Brawling headbutt is a skill that reduces DPS and slows adrenaline flow. Why everyone has such a raging hard on for it is beyond me.

Your posts on BH and Flail in this thread and the other one were very eye opening and make total sense. Thanks for that, as I always found the typical godmode build to be rather slowish for some reason. I started running WE Axe instead and it felt so much more efficient, and your posts completely clarified why.

draxynnic · Nov 17, 2009, 10:53 AM // 10:53

For outright damage, WE axe (or scythe) probably is the best option - with Power Attack and a couple of other short-recharge energy skills, you're practically dragonslashspamming nonstop. Dragonslashing gives you some utility in exchange for decreased ability when FGJ! wears off.

Speaking of that period of decreased ability...I wonder just what the Doctor uses during that downtime? You can keep SY! up reasonably well just off Dragon Slash and an IAS, but if you don't have some form of supplementary adrenaline booster, you're going to spend some time autoattacking once FGJ wears off.

Regarding my own usage of Lion's Comfort - I certainly don't use it on recharge, but it is useful when, for whatever reason, you find yourself short on adrenaline when you really want to have another adrenal skill ready (possibly SY!, possibly something else). I also run it at Strength 13, so its adrenaline return is better than in the Doctor's analysis. In these circumstances, it does have an adrenaline return over autoattacking, at the cost of the damage you'd get out of autoattacking. Unlike autoattacking, you can also LC when not adjacent to an enemy - which can be important if SY! is down and you want it back up now. The healing is the least important consideration, but sometimes it is something to be glad of.

Regarding knocklocking - there are a variety of times it can be useful. Enemy monks that attempt to kite (especially in Hard Mode earlygame missions, where you don't have a full party), but sometimes you do want to knocklock an elementalist or ritualist boss.

_Nihilist_ · Nov 17, 2009, 06:51 PM // 18:51

I would prefer that you quoted the entirety of my statement rather than a snippet, and base your response on the full context Reverend.

Chthon · Nov 17, 2009, 08:46 PM // 20:46

1. YMLAD is a terrible skill for warriors. You can't afford 10e. Even if you could afford it, 10 sec recharge is kinda meh without AP. In that sense, BH wins by default here. /thread.

2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Headbutt is a non-attack adrenal skill. Unlike an adrenal attack skill, it does not replenish the adrenaline lost. Every time you use it, it disrupts your adrenaline flow...

Yes, but sometimes it's worth it. In the context of knocking down a monk, you've essentially dealt damage equal to whatever that monk would have prevented/healed with its casts in the next 3 sec, but didn't. Against some of the seriously annoying HM monks, that's going to be in the hundreds, thousands even if it's got SH or SoA. That's worth trading away DS's +dmg on your next hit. In the context of a significant caster, you've essentially prevented/healed damage equal to whatever that caster was going to deal in the next 3 sec, but didn't. Against some HM bosses, and even some of the better built HM eles, that can also be worth trading away DS's +dmg on your next hit. The key is judicious use. BH is not free (and you make that point quite well), but it does not follow that it's not worth the cost. Often it is.

One other point on that topic, you're wrong to assume that the alternative to using BH+auto is always going to be DS+DS. It's not. If your target is fleeing, the alternative to BH+auto is chase+chase some more. If you're suffering from blind, blurred vision, etc., the alternative to BH+wiff is wiff+wiff.

3.

Quote:

What about to keep enemies in place for flail? Flail is a bad skill.

I don't much care for Flail, but sometimes it's the only choice. Frenzy is essentially a choice only your monk can make. If they can't support it, you can't run Frenzy. Drunken Master costs a PvE slot that's really hard to give up, plus booze if you want more than 15%. (Might as well use rock candies...) What's left? Flurry? Tiger Stance? Sometimes Flail is the least bad option open to you.

4.

Quote:

What about Steelfang? The combo is Brawling -> auto attack -> steelfang, not brawling -> steelfang. This means that you have to be in IAS else you do not have time to get the conditional from steelfang.

IMO, Steelfang is only worth it if SY! coverage is your priority. If you really, really have to keep SY! up when FJG is down, this gets you there. Otherwise, I can't really support it.

5.

Quote:

Lion's Comfort: This is a terrible skill, never use it. Strictly speaking the skill gains adrenaline, but using the skill has no positive effect on overall adrenaline gain. Using the skill forces a loss of one strike from every other adrenal skill, the gain of 2 adrenaline is now a gain of only 1 adrenaline. In the time that you used the skill you could have made an attack, the gain of 1 adrenaline is now a net gain of 0 adrenaline.

This skill isn't exactly at the top of my list either, but I wouldn't call it terrible.

A. The picture is different under FGJ. Net gain of 1, or 3 if you can't count on making a hit in the alternative (again, the assumption that the only alternative is a successful hit is a bad one). Not great, but it is a gain.

B. You still get the heal. Not that you should need heals if your monk is doing their job...

C. Timing. Sometimes having enough adrenaline at the right moment is more important than having the maximum average adrenaline gain. For example: If you're crawling under Deep Freeze, yards away from the nearest foe, with 5 more Deep Freezes winding up, LC will get SY! up in time. Nothing else will.

Reverend Dr · Nov 17, 2009, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Should I just edit in the rest of your post into the quote, because I did respond to it all.

Flail -> auto attack -> head butt -> auto attack ->steelfang, this gains you 5 adrenaline from steelfang. If I had just sat there and auto attacked I would have gotten 4 anyway, that extra 1 adrenaline at the expense of of a skill slot and a highly valued PvE slot sure does make the difference.

Brawling headbutt is not a bad skill, in fact it is a strong skill. However it does not fit into the adrenaline heavy D-slash build, it only slows things down as I have explained. If it were placed into an energy heavy build (say WE axe) it would synergize much better with that build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

You can keep SY! up reasonably well just off Dragon Slash and an IAS, but if you don't have some form of supplementary adrenaline booster, you're going to spend some time autoattacking once FGJ wears off.

I would rather be proactive in using auto-attack to gain adrenaline than using auto-attacks to recover from non-adrenal skill use. Besides once you drop all of the poorly synergizing skills from that d-slash bar you have a lot of space open for adrenal attack skills (standing slash, galrath, sun and moon, body blow), very little of your time is spent auto attacking, and mobs die pretty darn quick. But what do I use when FGJ is down? I don't use FGJ, that's what I use. (When I run D-slash, the only common skills between my bar and the 'standard' bar are D-slash and SY, but I normally just run WE axe and kill things in 3 hits)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

One other point on that topic, you're wrong to assume that the alternative to using BH+auto is always going to be DS+DS. It's not. If your target is fleeing, the alternative to BH+auto is chase+chase some more. If you're suffering from blind, blurred vision, etc., the alternative to BH+wiff is wiff+wiff.

I don't much care for Flail, but sometimes it's the only choice. Frenzy is essentially a choice only your monk can make. If they can't support it, you can't run Frenzy. Drunken Master costs a PvE slot that's really hard to give up, plus booze if you want more than 15%. (Might as well use rock candies...) What's left? Flurry? Tiger Stance? Sometimes Flail is the least bad option open to you.

In order, the alternative to BH+auto is Adrenaldmg+Adrenaldmg not necessarily DS+DS, stop using flail and the alternative to fleeing mobs is freecrit+freecrit, its PvE so you are not suffering from blind, blurred, or block.

Flail is never a good choice. People say don't use flail when it would get you stuck in flail, well that is almost always in my experience. What is the point of an IAS that I can hardly use, I will get far more mileage out of Tiger's Stance. Not to say Tiger's Stance is amazing, its just flail is terrible. I really do advocate drunken master, even without booze it is so damn efficient in terms of cost/time. Frenzy is always a good choice, before drunken master the only time I wouldn't take frenzy(I'd take it, I just wouldn't use it enough for it to be worth bringing) was if I was facing a ton of afflicted or in the domain of pain.

draxynnic · Nov 18, 2009, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

I would rather be proactive in using auto-attack to gain adrenaline than using auto-attacks to recover from non-adrenal skill use. Besides once you drop all of the poorly synergizing skills from that d-slash bar you have a lot of space open for adrenal attack skills (standing slash, galrath, sun and moon, body blow), very little of your time is spent auto attacking, and mobs die pretty darn quick. But what do I use when FGJ is down? I don't use FGJ, that's what I use. (When I run D-slash, the only common skills between my bar and the 'standard' bar are D-slash and SY, but I normally just run WE axe and kill things in 3 hits)

Ehhh, played that build*... and if that's how you like to play, I'm not surprised you prefer WE axe. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if WE builds are able to keep up SY with roughly the same efficiency as the DS build you espouse (the DS build has DS, of course, but the adrenal attack skills don't build adrenaline while the energy skills from WE-builds do...)

*In fact, I played a variant pre-PvE-skills that used an Elementalist secondary and Whirlwind to knock down enemies for Steelfang, thus recharging the bar for Dragon and a bunch of other adrenal attacks. There were reliability issues as you can probably imagine (the enemy being targetted wouldn't be knocked down if they decided to do something other than attack when you used Whirlwind), but when it did work it was pretty sweet for the standards at the time.

qvtkc · Nov 18, 2009, 02:24 PM // 14:24

On DSlash builds, Brawling Headbutt. Why? Because it runs on adrenaline.

YMLaD + BH also works. On a WE scythe. Not so much on other builds.

LunchboxOctober · Nov 23, 2009, 06:55 PM // 18:55

In my experience you can maintain DS with just WwA and good positition in battle, consequently 20 seconds into any battle most of the mob is dead preventing any really solid aoe chances unless facing spirits from rits or rangers.

Quote:

1. YMLAD is a terrible skill for warriors. You can't afford 10e. Even if you could afford it, 10 sec recharge is kinda meh without AP. In that sense, BH wins by default here.

Warriors have a standard pool of 20 energy, gaining 5 energy every 7.5 seconds, combined with a zealous weapon upgrade you can spend 10 energy every 10 seconds while still gaining energy (assuming you hit). And you should have a zealous weapon set to go along with a furious / elemental set with DS.

This opens up different possibilities and tactics that can be used and do not limit you to one non-essential KD, that despite being readily available, does not synergize with the build. Shutting down one target for three seconds is of very little consequence to me, being able to keep the kd'd is a chore, and a touch range skill that doesn't replinish the adrenaline it takes leaves much to be desired, that's why you don't see people using "Dodge This" with DS. Expand your horizons past a mediocre skill and use something better to shut down the enemy mobs like Technobabble, Pain Inverter, or something to cause deep wound to bring hm monks healing down into manageable levels.

And yes Technobabble is better than Brawling Headbutt, any day of the week. I'd rather shut / slow down a mob's casters for six seconds then spam a KD every 4. It also takes the sting off the initial cast spike in hm. And to shut down those melee / ranged punks, just bring Bsurge. Prevents more than a KD could do any day.

Quote:

Flail is never a good choice.

All things considered an IMS does better than IAS in PvE. Everything kites in HM, and have to chase them down is a pain. Sure you can pull mobs to you, get their melee caught up on minions or maybe even the entire mob if you're lucky, but in open areas where the geography doesn't allow such ai exploits you need something like Rush or Sprint to take care of fleeing foes. Besides, those free critical hits help, the AI doesn't know how to moonwalk.

In the end it's about team synergy. If you got enough harrassing the casters, shutting down their melee, protecting your party and dishing out pretty numbers, BH or Asuran Scan can be helpful, but if H/Hing with a Warrior you might want to re-think your options.

_Nihilist_ · Nov 23, 2009, 08:45 PM // 20:45

I understand using a Zealous weapon if you really need it, but I'd much rather be getting a few extra points of damage whenever possible off of my Vampiric, tbh. If I need more than the base 2 pips of e-regen, I'm probably going to be running a Warrior's Endurance bar, unless I just need a quick burst of available energy, at which point I'm hitting F2 to swap to my Zealous set for a few hits, then right back to F1 for my Vampiric.